Silentwave
Jul 12, 07:44 PM
Yes they are. I agree with you. But when I wrote that earlier in this thread, someone wrote that economies of scale dictated that Woody goes in everything Pro rather than only in the Quad. Makes no sense to me either. I think all non-quads should be Conroe.
Why?
it means:
different LB (not such a big deal, but still there- and wouldn't it be nice if they could (i dont know if its possible) use a dual socket LB even with single processor versions, and you could add a second one later for more performance? farfetched for sure but hey a guy can dream ;) )
Different CPUs
Different RAM
slower FSB
Why do that when you could buy larger amounts of the same RAM and same processors, just use different numbers? I think we all know that XServe will use Woodcrest, but the more computers that use the same processors the better.
Same goes for the RAM. FB-DIMM memory is expensive. the more Apple can get, the easier it is on us.
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Why?
it means:
different LB (not such a big deal, but still there- and wouldn't it be nice if they could (i dont know if its possible) use a dual socket LB even with single processor versions, and you could add a second one later for more performance? farfetched for sure but hey a guy can dream ;) )
Different CPUs
Different RAM
slower FSB
Why do that when you could buy larger amounts of the same RAM and same processors, just use different numbers? I think we all know that XServe will use Woodcrest, but the more computers that use the same processors the better.
Same goes for the RAM. FB-DIMM memory is expensive. the more Apple can get, the easier it is on us.
sterno74
Oct 26, 01:54 PM
If it's a simple swap of processors, then I would believe the rumors. :) 8-cores, wow! Much much faster than anyone anticipated.
I saw on one of the tech sites that they dropped a sample of the quad core xeon into the mac pro and it worked perfectly. There might be some cooling issues, but given that the quads actually run at a slightly lower clock speed, I doubt it.
Getting lots of cores is nice and all, but we aren't going to be seeing the kind of steady speed improvements that we used to. Not everything is readily threadable, and the less effective the threading, the less advantage you get from having all those cores. I mean sure you can encode four different movies at the same time or something like that, but in a real world use case, does it matter?
It's going to be a while before the software catches up with the hardware so in the mean time you're better off with a lower number of high speed cores than a lot of low speed ones.
I saw on one of the tech sites that they dropped a sample of the quad core xeon into the mac pro and it worked perfectly. There might be some cooling issues, but given that the quads actually run at a slightly lower clock speed, I doubt it.
Getting lots of cores is nice and all, but we aren't going to be seeing the kind of steady speed improvements that we used to. Not everything is readily threadable, and the less effective the threading, the less advantage you get from having all those cores. I mean sure you can encode four different movies at the same time or something like that, but in a real world use case, does it matter?
It's going to be a while before the software catches up with the hardware so in the mean time you're better off with a lower number of high speed cores than a lot of low speed ones.
econgeek
Apr 12, 10:45 PM
It's 'pro' editing for the masses but I'm sure many will keep their Adobe and AVID tools around for more orgranized productions.
Hard to take anyone seriously as a professional who uses Adobe. Avid, sure, but the industry has moved to Final Cut Pro, at least the part of the industry I interface with.
You calling this Final Cut a "toy" after it was just presented to a room full of professionals who loved it seems odd. Why the need to diminish it when it is clear that if you werent' there, there's much we don't yet know?
Hard to take anyone seriously as a professional who uses Adobe. Avid, sure, but the industry has moved to Final Cut Pro, at least the part of the industry I interface with.
You calling this Final Cut a "toy" after it was just presented to a room full of professionals who loved it seems odd. Why the need to diminish it when it is clear that if you werent' there, there's much we don't yet know?
Gurutech
Oct 26, 06:44 PM
On the video front, crushing video down to mp4 files is a two stage process which each use 3-4 cores. Hosing an 8-core Mac Pro will be no problem. Those of you who think that 8-cores is a lot and crazy have no experience with multi-core applications and the idea of running multiple instances of even single core applications simultaneously. You are going to have to begin to RETHINK how you execute your workflow - i.e. the ORDER in which you initiate processes - to get the most bang out of an 8-core Mac Pro and to begin learning how to get more work done in far less time than you do today.
Thank you for both those posts. I have felt pretty alone on these 8-core threads thus far. Glad to finally see someone else who understands and can explain so well why 8-cores is still not going to be enough joining in on these discussions.
Any of you who don't think a 16-core Mac Pro will be a hit in a year can really only be into word processing. :p
Mac Pro is only true desktop offering from Apple. That's the problem.
Not that many individuals really want that much power.
However, they do intensive enough tasks requiring more power that exceeds what iMac can offer. The price and power ratio of iMac is just not enough.
Apple really needs something between "Pro" and "Consumer".
If iMac offered the ability to work as monitor, I wouldn't be disappointed by this much.
This is getting old already, but what I need is a decent Conroe Desktop with around 1500 USD price tag.
Thank you for both those posts. I have felt pretty alone on these 8-core threads thus far. Glad to finally see someone else who understands and can explain so well why 8-cores is still not going to be enough joining in on these discussions.
Any of you who don't think a 16-core Mac Pro will be a hit in a year can really only be into word processing. :p
Mac Pro is only true desktop offering from Apple. That's the problem.
Not that many individuals really want that much power.
However, they do intensive enough tasks requiring more power that exceeds what iMac can offer. The price and power ratio of iMac is just not enough.
Apple really needs something between "Pro" and "Consumer".
If iMac offered the ability to work as monitor, I wouldn't be disappointed by this much.
This is getting old already, but what I need is a decent Conroe Desktop with around 1500 USD price tag.
*LTD*
Apr 10, 11:22 AM
Epic is garbage and their engine is garbage.
Six of one, a half dozen of the other.
Big name is big name.
And yeah, really garbage. :rolleyes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_Games
Pretty impressive, I'd say. But it won't just be Epic. Others are and will follow. Rest assured.
Six of one, a half dozen of the other.
Big name is big name.
And yeah, really garbage. :rolleyes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_Games
Pretty impressive, I'd say. But it won't just be Epic. Others are and will follow. Rest assured.
levitynyc
Apr 9, 04:46 AM
Apple doesn't care what you plug into the 30 pin adapter. Go here (http://www.itechnews.net/tag/iphone-controller/) to see all kinds of button-rich controllers for the iPhone, iPod Touch and iPad. Some plug into the connector and some operate the game over wifi, and one allows both methods. Before commenting, let Google be your friend. :)
Hmm.. then why are people always saying BUTTONS BUTTONS BUTTONS when complaining about gaming for the iphone/ipod touch?
Hmm.. then why are people always saying BUTTONS BUTTONS BUTTONS when complaining about gaming for the iphone/ipod touch?
aristobrat
Mar 18, 09:37 AM
What contract did I physically sigm when I got my phone? The only thing I signed was a credit card receipt.
Where'd you buy your iPhone?
Where'd you buy your iPhone?
Peace
Sep 12, 04:44 PM
This is the device I said was coming with the exception of the Hard Drive and I bet before it's released it has one.
Xibalba
Oct 7, 04:09 PM
I hope my sarcasm meter is broken.
If it is not, comments like this are exactly what is wrong with this forum.
What does Microsoft has to do with topic?
i agree with you but i think that he was referring to the fact that if android surpasses the iphone, then MS's windows mobile OS will fall even further back in the mobile operating system rankings.
still, i find it annoying when people blindly bash MS or Apple just because others are doing it. MS does make some good products, but i prefer (and can afford) apple when it comes to computing and mobile products. i do however enjoy the MS Xbox 360 product and will purchase the upcoming Natal technology.
If it is not, comments like this are exactly what is wrong with this forum.
What does Microsoft has to do with topic?
i agree with you but i think that he was referring to the fact that if android surpasses the iphone, then MS's windows mobile OS will fall even further back in the mobile operating system rankings.
still, i find it annoying when people blindly bash MS or Apple just because others are doing it. MS does make some good products, but i prefer (and can afford) apple when it comes to computing and mobile products. i do however enjoy the MS Xbox 360 product and will purchase the upcoming Natal technology.
sinsin07
Apr 9, 06:47 AM
I was thinking the same thing. "In my day" a hardcore gamer was someone that custom built a gaming rig consisting of no less then 2 graphics cards (add a third and get SLI + PhysX), each costing at least if not more then a single PS3, the most expensive 'extreme' cpu they could find, and a small nuclear power plant for a PSU, then boasting about their 3D Mark scores.
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Gelfin
Mar 13, 04:39 PM
One word.
Battery.
This word isn't really compatible with your argument that the reason we must eschew nuclear energy is that mining the necessary minerals destroys the environment.
Battery.
This word isn't really compatible with your argument that the reason we must eschew nuclear energy is that mining the necessary minerals destroys the environment.
iphones4evry1
Oct 8, 12:15 AM
If the day comes when an Android phone is as good as an iPhone, then it will be the service provider that will be the tipping point. AT&T better get their act together!
Sounds Good
Apr 10, 09:24 PM
Not that this really matters much, but just for the record:
I was one of the first to own the original iPhone and have an iPhone 4 now. I bought an iPhone 4 for my wife and an iPod Touch for my son. I got my mom an iPad and I'm about to buy one for myself. So I'm certainly not anti-Apple. I'm just not sure I see a clear advantage FOR ME to get a Mac computer over a Windows machine.
But, who knows... maybe some day.
I was one of the first to own the original iPhone and have an iPhone 4 now. I bought an iPhone 4 for my wife and an iPod Touch for my son. I got my mom an iPad and I'm about to buy one for myself. So I'm certainly not anti-Apple. I'm just not sure I see a clear advantage FOR ME to get a Mac computer over a Windows machine.
But, who knows... maybe some day.
gnasher729
Jul 12, 01:31 PM
How much hotter would a MacBook Pro be with a single Woodcrest?
Why not Woodcrest for entire PRO line?
Please please please read through a few of the Merom / Conroe / Woodcrest thread. Using a single Woodcrest in _any_ machine is pure idiocy; chipsets are a few hundred dollars more expensive, hotter and not one bit faster than Conroe at the same clockspeed.
And using Conroe in a portable computer would be a highly questionable move. It uses twice the power of Merom at the same clockspeed and performance. It is a bit cheaper, but Apple would spend much more money for having to use much bigger batteries and a much more powerful cooling system. Macbook and Macbook Pro are really quiet if you use not more than about half their performance; at full performance the fans are quite noisy. With a Conroe chip, you would have the full noise at medium speed; Conroe running at full speed would make one hell of a noise and empty your batteries within minutes.
Why not Woodcrest for entire PRO line?
Please please please read through a few of the Merom / Conroe / Woodcrest thread. Using a single Woodcrest in _any_ machine is pure idiocy; chipsets are a few hundred dollars more expensive, hotter and not one bit faster than Conroe at the same clockspeed.
And using Conroe in a portable computer would be a highly questionable move. It uses twice the power of Merom at the same clockspeed and performance. It is a bit cheaper, but Apple would spend much more money for having to use much bigger batteries and a much more powerful cooling system. Macbook and Macbook Pro are really quiet if you use not more than about half their performance; at full performance the fans are quite noisy. With a Conroe chip, you would have the full noise at medium speed; Conroe running at full speed would make one hell of a noise and empty your batteries within minutes.
*LTD*
Apr 9, 05:31 PM
There's a market for games with more depth that sell at higher prices, and there's a market for cheap on-the-go games that are great for downtime on the train or waiting at the airport.
The point is the line between these two camps is being blurred. It's a feature of the post-PC era. Look at what the App Store games section is evolving into - daily, monthly, yearly. It's pretty astounding. Soon, "hardcore gaming" will characterize other devices in addition to consoles. THIS is the real revolution that's going on when it comes to the gaming market. Apple is redefining it.
The point is the line between these two camps is being blurred. It's a feature of the post-PC era. Look at what the App Store games section is evolving into - daily, monthly, yearly. It's pretty astounding. Soon, "hardcore gaming" will characterize other devices in addition to consoles. THIS is the real revolution that's going on when it comes to the gaming market. Apple is redefining it.
Phat Elvis
Sep 12, 04:07 PM
There's no need for DVR functionality. Apple will replace your cable subscription. You just subsribe to the shows you want and al la carte other shows after that. Networks will probably even do the season premieres free to get you hooked or add sponsor the shows to make them free. TV on demand is obviously the next wave - even the cable companies know it and have on demand etc. I mean not to be racist but I'm happy to stop paying comcast for the 10+ stations that are in languages I don't even speak. I barely speak english - hahaha.
In conclusion - its the same data - just different timing.
I totally agree with this. This is the perfect device for Apple to start selling subscriptions to shows to replace cable. A la cart cable legislation is picking up steam and this will put iTunes in the cable business. Think about how many households have iPods, now compare that number to the HUGE number of houses that have cable. Wouldn't you rather pay for only the shows that you watch?
The think that worries me is that there is no mention of this device being able to play non-iTunes movies. What about if you back up a DVD to your computer. Can you play it on this? We'll have to wait and see.
In conclusion - its the same data - just different timing.
I totally agree with this. This is the perfect device for Apple to start selling subscriptions to shows to replace cable. A la cart cable legislation is picking up steam and this will put iTunes in the cable business. Think about how many households have iPods, now compare that number to the HUGE number of houses that have cable. Wouldn't you rather pay for only the shows that you watch?
The think that worries me is that there is no mention of this device being able to play non-iTunes movies. What about if you back up a DVD to your computer. Can you play it on this? We'll have to wait and see.
Mac'nCheese
Apr 23, 09:21 PM
Maybe because the majority of atheists tend to have an attitude of more "religion sucks, I'm atheist" whereas religious people do not have an "atheism sucks, I'm theistic" attitude for the most part.
.
Wow. I see it completely the other way. The religious people look at the atheists as lost souls, sinners, who need to be saved. They want their beliefs to be the basis for our laws. They need to have god thrown in our faces, on our money, in our pledges, in our courtrooms, etc. etc. And this is in the land of the free where separation of church and state is supposed to be one our most basic rights!
Don't believe me, check any poll about who people in the United States trust or who they would vote for. Atheists are always at the bottom of both lists!
.
Wow. I see it completely the other way. The religious people look at the atheists as lost souls, sinners, who need to be saved. They want their beliefs to be the basis for our laws. They need to have god thrown in our faces, on our money, in our pledges, in our courtrooms, etc. etc. And this is in the land of the free where separation of church and state is supposed to be one our most basic rights!
Don't believe me, check any poll about who people in the United States trust or who they would vote for. Atheists are always at the bottom of both lists!
mmmcheese
Sep 12, 05:05 PM
I think they did it because iTV doesn't really threaten any existing Apple products, so people aren't likely to hold off buying something while they wait for it. It's still odd behavior from Apple, but I'm not complaining.
The other possible reason. When someone is considering buying a movie and asks "Can I play it on my TV?" Apple can say "yes...well, in a few months when product X is available." This was a big question for Amazon...and their answer was "yes, if you connect your computer to your TV" which is a really ugly answer (for consumers).
The other possible reason. When someone is considering buying a movie and asks "Can I play it on my TV?" Apple can say "yes...well, in a few months when product X is available." This was a big question for Amazon...and their answer was "yes, if you connect your computer to your TV" which is a really ugly answer (for consumers).
CalBoy
Apr 23, 12:57 AM
No one is concluding that there was a single "bang," and I'm certainly not conflating anything. "Bang" is a metaphor, and no one is relating it to the "origin of life." You're trying inflate your own ego and place your "scientific literacy" on display here by arguing a point that no one is questioning.
You certainly have been dancing around it throughout this thread:
You certainly have been dancing around it throughout this thread:
javajedi
Oct 9, 08:03 PM
Someone inquired about the benchmark Java console program I created:
It's located at http://members.ij.net/javajedi
I've also included the source (FPMathTest.java) for the curious.
Download the class file and invoke it from Terminal via "java FPMathTest"
I must warn you in advance my PowerBook G4 performs miserabily. It does not utilize Altivec(G4), SSE2(P4), or other vector processing extensions.
Enjoy :)
Kevin
It's located at http://members.ij.net/javajedi
I've also included the source (FPMathTest.java) for the curious.
Download the class file and invoke it from Terminal via "java FPMathTest"
I must warn you in advance my PowerBook G4 performs miserabily. It does not utilize Altivec(G4), SSE2(P4), or other vector processing extensions.
Enjoy :)
Kevin
ChrisA
Jul 12, 12:19 PM
Just as a data point for you all: I'm typing this on a dual processor Xeon runing at 3.6 Ghz.
Each procesor has 1M cache. The system has 4GB RAM and some 10K RPM Ultra-SCSI disks. It runs Linux. This system runs circles around any current Intel Mac. I'm not putting Mac down. Not at all. I just wanted to let you all know to expect a huge performane jump when these new dual and quad core woodcrest machines come out.
You want my guess about what's comming. Apple will offer a high-end dual Woodcrest, quad core "mac pro" and it will be expensive. But they will also offer a lower-end dual processor (Conroe) tower. in a mini-tower configuration. Call it a "Mac Pro Lite" for arounr $2K
Each procesor has 1M cache. The system has 4GB RAM and some 10K RPM Ultra-SCSI disks. It runs Linux. This system runs circles around any current Intel Mac. I'm not putting Mac down. Not at all. I just wanted to let you all know to expect a huge performane jump when these new dual and quad core woodcrest machines come out.
You want my guess about what's comming. Apple will offer a high-end dual Woodcrest, quad core "mac pro" and it will be expensive. But they will also offer a lower-end dual processor (Conroe) tower. in a mini-tower configuration. Call it a "Mac Pro Lite" for arounr $2K
BWhaler
Jul 11, 11:47 PM
I certainly don't know, but in the past I thought Apple would of gone with the Conroe chip.
But Apple is being very aggressive these days, and appears to be going to marketshare now that Microsoft is showing serious signs of aging.
My hope is for the Woodcrest chip. I would buy that in a heart beat since it is 64 bit and more future proof. A conroe system will make me wait out a year (like I did with the MBPros...I've been waiting on the real chip the Core 2 Duo...)
But Apple is being very aggressive these days, and appears to be going to marketshare now that Microsoft is showing serious signs of aging.
My hope is for the Woodcrest chip. I would buy that in a heart beat since it is 64 bit and more future proof. A conroe system will make me wait out a year (like I did with the MBPros...I've been waiting on the real chip the Core 2 Duo...)
Multimedia
Oct 11, 04:19 PM
Got my coupon and tested it. It doesn't stack...total price is $1349.00Thanks for the update. Still as cheap as the refurbs. I think that's cheap enough for me.
the 30" is 4,096k pixels = $1349
the 24" x2 is 4,608k pixels = $1420
30" = 512k pixels smaller but one big canvas.
One card can drive a 30" + a 24" for a total of 7,400k pixels.
Going up from my current level of 4,224k or + 3,176k pixels.
Got my coupon and I'm good to go with my balance available on Friday to get this deal for $1460 including tax.
Thanks for the coupon tip rxse7en. I got one that lasts thru Monday. Going to buy it. I know it may still get cheaper, but it's cheap enough now to go for it - esp cause I have credit with Dell.
the 30" is 4,096k pixels = $1349
the 24" x2 is 4,608k pixels = $1420
30" = 512k pixels smaller but one big canvas.
One card can drive a 30" + a 24" for a total of 7,400k pixels.
Going up from my current level of 4,224k or + 3,176k pixels.
Got my coupon and I'm good to go with my balance available on Friday to get this deal for $1460 including tax.
Thanks for the coupon tip rxse7en. I got one that lasts thru Monday. Going to buy it. I know it may still get cheaper, but it's cheap enough now to go for it - esp cause I have credit with Dell.
lukewho
Sep 12, 06:35 PM
I have no need for a separate tv; would like to just use my cinema display or iMac's screen...I am generally fine just sticking with DVDs and the occassional iTunes TV episode impulse-buy when I have some TV-jones. But I would occassionally like to watch me some live television - without having to make room for a separate TVbox in my cramped studio apartment. This new iTV box does nothing to fix this gap in technology, right? Basically, It puts my computer's media onto the TV, but not TV media onto my computer. I have heard about possibility of tuner cards, but don't know much about them. So, without having to pay-per-episode or per movie from the iTunes store what are some suggestions?
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